Welcome DeVon Cooper

gmujim92

Hall of Famer
Pretty sure it's just late season legs. I've been thinkinga bout how we've been doing WAY better with bench minutes/contributions (Fordham game notwithstanding...) and if that had picked up earlier in the season we may not have two core guys who are just completely gassed at this point.

Coop or Gaines finds their groove and I'll feel a lot better about the tournament. If they stay cold I won't be surprised if we go down early. Nevertheless I know that Gaines at least will find a way to contribute even if he's not shooting.
Agreed. I’d be more concerned if the offense was unable to consistently generate open shots, but that is not at all the problem — even at VCU we had a bunch of open 3s, but whether it’s some combination of fatigue, slumping or reversion to the mean, our last couple weeks have been a bricklayers’ convention. 90% of the missed 3s against GW were in rhythm and uncontested, great shots. They just didn’t go in.

Interesting that it has coincided with KE’s renewed emphasis on defensive intensity post-homecoming debacle. Makes me wonder if guys who are already gassed (because of our well-documented lack of depth) are giving basically everything in the tank on defense and have no legs left for the other end of the floor.
 

mkaufman1

Administrator
Staff member
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Agreed. I’d be more concerned if the offense was unable to consistently generate open shots, but that is not at all the problem — even at VCU we had a bunch of open 3s, but whether it’s some combination of fatigue, slumping or reversion to the mean, our last couple weeks have been a bricklayers’ convention. 90% of the missed 3s against GW were in rhythm and uncontested, great shots. They just didn’t go in.

Interesting that it has coincided with KE’s renewed emphasis on defensive intensity post-homecoming debacle. Makes me wonder if guys who are already gassed (because of our well-documented lack of depth) are giving basically everything in the tank on defense and have no legs left for the other end of the floor.

Its not defense, they are just going too hard in practice. :p

Nah, I think its a bunch of things. Late season legs, regression to the mean, conference play is much more of a grind. Not having a bench helps mitigate some of this stuff but pretty much every game is going to have to be "gutted" out at this juncture with a key stretch like yesterday.
 

duncanlamb

Sixth Man
Agreed. I’d be more concerned if the offense was unable to consistently generate open shots, but that is not at all the problem — even at VCU we had a bunch of open 3s, but whether it’s some combination of fatigue, slumping or reversion to the mean, our last couple weeks have been a bricklayers’ convention. 90% of the missed 3s against GW were in rhythm and uncontested, great shots. They just didn’t go in.

Interesting that it has coincided with KE’s renewed emphasis on defensive intensity post-homecoming debacle. Makes me wonder if guys who are already gassed (because of our well-documented lack of depth) are giving basically everything in the tank on defense and have no legs left for the other end of the floor.

It comes down to shot selection. When VCU's 3's arent falling, coach rhoades makes an emphasis to get to the rim either by post touches, give and go etc. for easy baskets to establish a shooting confidence and then work inside out.

In his GW post game presser, CKE indicated a willingness to wait until the 3's start falling.
Seveeral color tv analysts(former.college coaches and players) during mason games have stated he should go to the basket sooner for higher percentage shots sooner rather than later.
 

sleeperpick

Hall of Famer
It comes down to shot selection. When VCU's 3's arent falling, coach rhoades makes an emphasis to get to the rim either by post touches, give and go etc. for easy baskets to establish a shooting confidence and then work inside out.

In his GW post game presser, CKE indicated a willingness to wait until the 3's start falling.
Seveeral color tv analysts(former.college coaches and players) during mason games have stated he should go to the basket sooner for higher percentage shots sooner rather than later.
I don't want to treat you like the ENTIRE VCU board treats you... but not every comment you make has to tie in with VCU. we don't give a rats a** about that glorified community college in the filth of run down Richmond.
 

duncanlamb

Sixth Man
I don't want to treat you like the ENTIRE VCU board treats you... but not every comment you make has to tie in with VCU. we don't give a rats a** about that glorified community college in the filth of run down Richmond.

Ive taken alot of S--- on that board..it doesnt phase me...

I think maybe 1 out every 50.comments i make on this board has a vcu reference. 49 are strictly mason content.

Secondly, there's may be 3 idiot vrn posters who make those types of comments

Thirdly, my point still stands: CKE needs to.get to the front of the rim earlier when 3's arent falling..not wait until 8 minutes left in the game. GW's interior defense was porous, mason could have dropped a dozen more points with layups instead just waiting for the 3's to drop.
 

sleeperpick

Hall of Famer
Ive taken alot of S--- on that board..it doesnt phase me...

I think maybe 1 out every 50.comments i make on this board has a vcu reference. 49 are strictly mason content.

Secondly, there's may be 3 idiot vrn posters who make those types of comments

Thirdly, my point still stands: CKE needs to.get to the front of the rim earlier when 3's arent falling..not wait until 8 minutes left in the game. GW's interior defense was porous, mason could have dropped a dozen more points with layups instead just waiting for the 3's to drop.
Duncan... Oduro was either fouled or 3 teamed and he effectively kicked the ball out for wide open three pointers. the 3's when they weren't falling were hardly forced. I am not sure what you want Oduro/CKE to do more. He either scored, was fouled or kicked out for wide open 3's. at some point they need to make them. I am glad Oduro didn't force it more than he did because that is when he has his 8 turnover games.
 

JimP

All-American
⭐️ Donor ⭐️
It comes down to shot selection. When VCU's 3's arent falling, coach rhoades makes an emphasis to get to the rim either by post touches, give and go etc. for easy baskets to establish a shooting confidence and then work inside out.

In his GW post game presser, CKE indicated a willingness to wait until the 3's start falling.
Seveeral color tv analysts(former.college coaches and players) during mason games have stated he should go to the basket sooner for higher percentage shots sooner rather than later.
It worked out Saturday, but this is a fair point.
 

GSII

Hall of Famer
⭐️ Donor ⭐️
Ive taken alot of S--- on that board..it doesnt phase me...

I think maybe 1 out every 50.comments i make on this board has a vcu reference. 49 are strictly mason content.

Secondly, there's may be 3 idiot vrn posters who make those types of comments

Thirdly, my point still stands: CKE needs to.get to the front of the rim earlier when 3's arent falling..not wait until 8 minutes left in the game. GW's interior defense was porous, mason could have dropped a dozen more points with layups instead just waiting for the 3's to drop.
Excellent point.
 
OP
G

GMUgemini

Hall of Famer
CKE has said repeatedly that “we like 3s but we love layups.” A think a lot of his public statements are about trying to build up players’ confidence. So could they have tried to work it inside more and get a better shot? Maybe. But was the shot open, in rhythm, and within the framework of the offense? If yes, he doesn’t want his players second guessing that shot so he’s going to say “I had no problem with the shot creation.”

Notice what he said later about Oduro missing the open layup late, or the corner 3, or any free throws. It was a different tone trying to push a great player to become dominant (not that he didn’t already dominate the game, but he could have scored over 30 easy).
 

duncanlamb

Sixth Man
Duncan... Oduro was either fouled or 3 teamed and he effectively kicked the ball out for wide open three pointers. the 3's when they weren't falling were hardly forced. I am not sure what you want Oduro/CKE to do more. He either scored, was fouled or kicked out for wide open 3's. at some point they need to make them. I am glad Oduro didn't force it more than he did because that is when he has his 8 turnover games.

Oduro is fine. Taking open 3's are fine. But if the 3's aren't falling for say to 2 or 3 consecutive trips and oduro is double then cut some one down the lane to the basket for the dump off an layin or run give and go(screen and roll) with XJ.

There are number of things that can be done other than just dump the ball in and having the shooters just stand there waiting for the kickout.

More motion to get players free.

The point is dont wait until you are 1 for 19. Find a way to get easier shots near the basket.
 
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Jack Strop

Starter
Oduro is fine. Taking open 3's are fine. But if the 3's aren't falling for say to 2 or 3 consecutive trips and oduro is double then cut some one down the lane to the basket for the dump off an layin or run give and go(screen and roll) with XJ.

There are number of things that can be done other than just dump the ball in and having the shooters just stand there waiting for the kickout.

More motion to get players free.

The point is dont wait until you are 1 for 19. Find a way to get easier shots near the basket.
I understand the "find a way" tactic. However, defenses against Mason have generally packed the paint daring Mason to go long. The defense will not change until Mason starts to hit those shots.

I observed multiple moments when XJ, Polite, and even Cooper attempted a pick-n-roll with Josh that was aborted due to two defenders walling off the rim at the circle. Defenses aren't letting us do much inside the key. Mason doesn't have a player like Jordan Miller, Marquise Moore, or Erik Herring who can slash in along the baseline and turn those defenders off of Josh. That would give you a layup opportunity or potential assist.

We've seen Ticket try to do this, but he seems shy or hesitant. Schwartz is too slow to do it—it's not his game. As pointed out earlier, Cooper shoots practically all threes. Ronnie Polite has the skills to do it, but he's busy running the point. Layups from them are sparse, as are assists. Mason is #72 in NCAA assists. Cooper is 2nd on the team in assists, but has half as many as the team's assists leader XJ. Mason needs to spread around their assists from other sources. In other words, one has to make those defenders in the paint move.

I'm certain that this will change next season with Fernandez on the wing. But, until then, Mason's wings and shooting guards are going to continue to be one dimensional and mainly shoot the three.
 
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gmujim92

Hall of Famer
a
I understand the "find a way" tactic. However, defenses against Mason have generally packed the paint daring Mason to go long. The defense will not change until Mason starts to hit those shots.

I observed multiple moments when XJ, Polite, and even Cooper attempted a pick-n-roll with Josh that was aborted due to two defenders walling off the rim at the circle. Defenses aren't letting us do much inside the key. Mason doesn't have a player like Jordan Miller, Marquise Moore, or Erik Herring who can slash in along the baseline and turn those defenders off of Josh. That would give you a layup opportunity or potential assist.

We've seen Ticket try to do this, but he seems shy or hesitant. Schwartz is too slow to do it—it's not his game. As pointed out earlier, Cooper shoots practically all threes. Ronnie Polite has the skills to do it, but he's busy running the point. Layups from them are sparse, as are assists. Mason is #72 in NCAA assists. Cooper is 2nd on the team in assists, but has half as many as the team's assists leader XJ. Mason needs to spread around their assists from other sources. In other words, one has to make those defenders in the paint move.

I'm certain that this will change next season with Fernandez on the wing. But, until then, Mason's wings and shooting guards are going to continue to be one dimensional and mainly shoot the three.
No. 72 nationally in assists is a great step in the right direction and reflects Kim’s emphasis on sharing the ball. Our assist numbers were generally poor under both Hewitt and DP because the ball movement was so stagnant.
 

duncanlamb

Sixth Man
I understand the "find a way" tactic. However, defenses against Mason have generally packed the paint daring Mason to go long. The defense will not change until Mason starts to hit those shots.

I observed multiple moments when XJ, Polite, and even Cooper attempted a pick-n-roll with Josh that was aborted due to two defenders walling off the rim at the circle. Defenses aren't letting us do much inside the key. Mason doesn't have a player like Jordan Miller, Marquise Moore, or Erik Herring who can slash in along the baseline and turn those defenders off of Josh. That would give you a layup opportunity or potential assist.

We've seen Ticket try to do this, but he seems shy or hesitant. Schwartz is too slow to do it—it's not his game. As pointed out earlier, Cooper shoots practically all threes. Ronnie Polite has the skills to do it, but he's busy running the point. Layups from them are sparse, as are assists. Mason is #72 in NCAA assists. Cooper is 2nd on the team in assists, but has half as many as the team's assists leader XJ. Mason needs to spread around their assists from other sources. In other words, one has to make those defenders in the paint move.

I'm certain that this will change next season with Fernandez on the wing. But, until then, Mason's wings and shooting guards are going to continue to be one dimensional and mainly shoot the three.
Okay. Makes sense. Thanks.
 

Quentin Daniels

Hall of Famer
I observed multiple moments when XJ, Polite, and even Cooper attempted a pick-n-roll with Josh that was aborted due to two defenders walling off the rim at the circle. Defenses aren't letting us do much inside the key. Mason doesn't have a player like Jordan Miller, Marquise Moore, or Erik Herring who can slash in along the baseline and turn those defenders off of Josh. That would give you a layup opportunity or potential assist.

We've seen Ticket try to do this, but he seems shy or hesitant. Schwartz is too slow to do it—it's not his game. As pointed out earlier, Cooper shoots practically all threes. Ronnie Polite has the skills to do it, but he's busy running the point. Layups from them are sparse, as are assists. Mason is #72 in NCAA assists. Cooper is 2nd on the team in assists, but has half as many as the team's assists leader XJ. Mason needs to spread around their assists from other sources. In other words, one has to make those defenders in the paint move.

I'm certain that this will change next season with Fernandez on the wing. But, until then, Mason's wings and shooting guards are going to continue to be one dimensional and mainly shoot the three.

Yup. 100% agree.

I can't remember when the last time was that we didn't have the luxury of a 6'3" 6'4" guard that can take it one-on-one to the hoop as the clock expires in a close game. Guys like Nate Langley, Mark Davis, Folarin Campbell, Cam Long, Sherrod Wright, Marquise Moore (OK, 6'2" but close enough), Jaire Grayer, Justin Kier, or Javon Greene. Everyone of them was also a threat to hit from the arc too, so couldn't just sag off and pack the zone.

Cooper is probably the closest we have to that right now. Fernandez looks like he can be that guy in the future, but would love to see us pick someone up in the portal too as I hate to be reliant on Freshman. Even Long, Wright, and Moore averaged less than 6 PPG their first college seasons.
 
OP
G

GMUgemini

Hall of Famer
Yup. 100% agree.

I can't remember when the last time was that we didn't have the luxury of a 6'3" 6'4" guard that can take it one-on-one to the hoop as the clock expires in a close game. Guys like Nate Langley, Mark Davis, Folarin Campbell, Cam Long, Sherrod Wright, Marquise Moore (OK, 6'2" but close enough), Jaire Grayer, Justin Kier, or Javon Greene. Everyone of them was also a threat to hit from the arc too, so couldn't just sag off and pack the zone.

Cooper is probably the closest we have to that right now. Fernandez looks like he can be that guy in the future, but would love to see us pick someone up in the portal too as I hate to be reliant on Freshman. Even Long, Wright, and Moore averaged less than 6 PPG their first college seasons.

Yes, but Long, Wright, and Moore weren’t too 100 4 star recruits coming in either, nor did they have the luxury of registering a semester early to get acclimated with college and the team.

Also, Wright probably would have averaged closer to his sophomore numbers if he had to play more as a freshman than he did.
 

Quentin Daniels

Hall of Famer
Yes, but Long, Wright, and Moore weren’t too 100 4 star recruits coming in either, nor did they have the luxury of registering a semester early to get acclimated with college and the team.

Also, Wright probably would have averaged closer to his sophomore numbers if he had to play more as a freshman than he did.

Sherrod Wright was ranked the #32 SG by Scout and the #35 by ESPN, not exactly a slouch himself coming out of school and also a 4 Star before he signed w/Mason.

I'd love it if Fernandez lights it up from Day 1. I am hoping for it and rooting for Justyn to be the A10 ROY next season and think the early enrollment will give him a leg up. But I also know how to look things up on the interwebz. 247 Composite has Justyn as the #80 recruit in his class. Past players ranked 80th in the 247 composite include:

2021 - Malik Thomas .3 PPG at USC this season.
2020 - Jalen Terry, 2.9 PPPG at Oregon, currently at Depaul w/8.4 PPG this season.
2019 - Raequan Battle 4.9 PPG at Washington, Currently at Montana State w/8 PPG this season.
2018 - Noah Locke, 9.4 PPG at Florida, Currently at Louisville w/9.5 PPG this season.
2017 - Kyle Young, 1.8 PPG at OH State, Still there in his Super Sr. year w/8.2 PPG this season
2016 - Eli Wright, 3.5 PPG at MS State, transferred to St. John's, then Western Kentucky, then Morgan State.
2015 - Marcus Derrickson, 7.1 PPG at Georgetown, currently in the NBA w/Golden State.

** Bonus Entry **
2011 - #73 ranked player Erick Copes, 3.3 PPG at George Mason.

And if the CAAZone was still around, you'd be able to search and find me making a very similar thread about the 73rd ranked players prior to that year.
 
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GSII

Hall of Famer
⭐️ Donor ⭐️
The 2011 247 Composite had Malcolm Brogdon as 98th. Spencer Dinwiddie 132.
 

Quentin Daniels

Hall of Famer
The 2017 composite had D'Shawn Schwartz as the #71 player, making him the highest rated recruit out of high school to ever wear a Mason jersey.

The 2019 composite had Josh Oduro as unranked. ESPN and Rivals did too. So not an exact science, but the percentage of 5-Star recruits that have won an NBA jersey is a lot higher than 2-4s.

Here's Mason's All-Time Basketball Recruits Top 10 per the 247 Composite (HS commits only - not tranfers)

1. Erik Copes - #73
2. Justyn Fernandez - #80
3. Patrick Holloway - #116
4. Sherrod Wright - #166
5. Andre Cornelius - #173
6. Vertrail Vaughns - #249
7. Paris Bennet - #258
8. Therence Mayimba - #179
9. Goanar Mar - #214
10. Jonathan Arledge - #205

Other notables
14. Ryan Pearson - #227
19. - Mike Morrison - #295
26. Cam Long - #413
38. Folarin Campbell - #429 (2-Star)

Caveats here. The rankings are based on ratings and not nat'l rankings in the class. So Mayimba at 179 & .8775 comes in behind Bennet at #258 & .8809. They also only go back as far as 2003. Those earlier classes seem to have a lot less attention on them the further deep you go than now, but I'd make the case that the analysis and ranking of 1-50 is a lot more in depth than say #s 300-350 still. Devin Dinkins incidentally is the #308 recruit in the 2022 class.
 
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